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楼主: tanxinrong

浅谈伊斯兰教与伊斯兰教法

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发表于 22-4-2014 01:16 PM | 显示全部楼层
bashlyner 发表于 22-4-2014 12:21 PM
哎呀你以为人家第一天搞政治戏吗?回教国课题就是拿来分化民联的主要武器之一,而巫统就是因为占据了决定 ...

回教法这个问题  是今年才开始有的吗
只要有失意的回教徒政客  这个问题将会不断的重演
这次是伊斯兰党  下次可能是其他党极端的国会议员
都逃避了几十年了 如果这是解决的方法  还会有今天的问题吗

就好像马华的问题  一直以来华社都在逃避
50多年后的今天  美好的幻想破灭  还不是要做个抉择:
是继续发梦 明天会个好; 还是面对现实?





本帖最后由 逍遙 于 22-4-2014 01:18 PM 编辑

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发表于 22-4-2014 01:37 PM | 显示全部楼层
Itikputih 发表于 22-4-2014 12:51 PM
总之谁提出的就是谁提出的,说那么多也是PAS提出的。。
原本选民包括我在内还可以一只眼开一只眼闭的盲目 ...

没什么精神,宣言的。都是迷魂药
难道国阵没有精神,宣言之类吗? 都是幻觉来的

你说民联会失去一部分选民的支持  这是事实
但是不付出代价  就想看到结果?
人民应该非常在意的  是国阵是不是想实行回教法/回教国

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发表于 22-4-2014 01:52 PM | 显示全部楼层
bashlyner 发表于 22-4-2014 12:53 PM
如果巫统判断执行回教法带来的负面影响(比如马华和民政完蛋)超越正面影响(完全瓦解民联),那么人民就大难临头了。

你说到了一个非常重要的论点  相信有理智的人民也想知道的答案
巫统统治了这个国家57年 会被伊斯兰党牵着鼻子走   随便改变党的立场吗

如果国阵巫统支持伊斯兰党的议案    就说明了一个事实:
巫统的主流派是赞同回教法/回教国的
要实行只是时间上的问题  只不过这个隐议程提早几年曝光罢了



本帖最后由 逍遙 于 22-4-2014 01:54 PM 编辑

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发表于 22-4-2014 02:30 PM | 显示全部楼层
刚刚看RPK的文章看到这段:

人 若 不 是 埋 伏 著 殺 人 , 乃 是 神 交 在 他 手 中 , 我 就 設 下 一 個 地 方 , 他 可 以 往 那 裡 逃 跑
- 出埃及记 21:13

和你说的经文很像
回教的应该是 update 版本
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 楼主| 发表于 22-4-2014 02:45 PM | 显示全部楼层
JowY 发表于 22-4-2014 02:30 PM
刚刚看RPK的文章看到这段:

都是一样的,只是基督教懂得进步,认为律法已经不符合时代。
这就是为何现今越来越多基督徒逐渐接受同性恋合法化。

然而伊斯兰教还是食古不化!

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 楼主| 发表于 22-4-2014 03:14 PM | 显示全部楼层
虽然有些时候不同意RPK的文章,这篇却是一针见血!



Raja Petra Kamarudin

On 8th February 2009, Karpal Singh whacked Anwar Ibrahim and said that he was an immoral and treacherous person and was not fit to be Pakatan Rakyat’s leader. Karpal added that Anwar has done enough damage to the country and that the opposition needed another leader.

Karpal also said that DAP should leave Pakatan Rakyat. He also whacked other leaders in PKR and DAP, mentioning Lim Kit Siang and Lim Guan Eng by name, and accused them of siding with Anwar instead of with him (Karpal).

In October 2010, when Anwar, Tian Chua and Tunku Abdul Aziz Ibrahim of DAP visited London, I whacked Anwar Ibrahim for not honouring the agreement the opposition made regarding The People’s Declaration that they signed in February 2008. No one seems to remember Karpal whacking Anwar and the other leaders in PKR and DAP in February 2009. However, everyone remembers me doing the same almost two years later in October 2010. Strange is it not?

I admit that I have a soft spot for Karpal, just like I have a soft spot for Saifuddin Abdullah from Umno. And the reason I have a soft spot for these two leaders — one from DAP and the other from Umno — is because they are not scared of whacking their own party when their own parties deserve whacking. Sometimes we need to whack our own party when they get out of line.

I have always said from way before the historic 2008 general election that the Hudud matter cannot be ignored. Anwar Ibrahim and other Pakatan Rakyat leaders have always sung the tune of ‘we agree to disagree’. In other words, we need not come to any consensus on the Hudud issue. We just need to agree that we will never agree on the matter.

This is not the way to resolve disagreements. Disagreements need to be resolved in a more permanent manner. Agreeing to disagree only means we will not fight about the matter now but will fight over it later. And that ‘later’ has already come. The Hudud matter has, yet again, surfaced to haunt Pakatan Rakyat.

And now it is worse. In the past, the argument was between a few leaders in DAP and a few leaders in PAS. Today, even PKR and Umno have joined the quarrel. PKR and Umno, too, now support PAS in its effort to implement the Islamic criminal laws of Hudud in some of the predominantly Muslim states in Malaysia.

And this was one of my criticisms against Anwar in 2010. I highlighted all the issues facing the opposition and the so-called consensus was one of those issues. Anwar would like us to believe that Pakatan Rakyat rules by consensus. And where there is no consensus then they come to a consensus by agreeing to disagree. This is utter nonsense and I said so four years ago.

Coming to a consensus by agreeing to disagree is not a consensus. It is just postponing a fight to another more convenient time. And that ‘convenient’ time seems to be now. So now they will need to agree one way or another or else Pakatan Rakyat would need to be disbanded with one half supporting Hudud and the other half opposing it.

Some leaders in PAS are not too happy with my stand on religion. Some even accuse me of being an apostate. Others wonder why I have changed my stand since 2008. Actually, my stand today is no different from my stand in 2000. Back in 2000, I was already very vocal about some of the policies of Barisan Alternatif before it became Pakatan Rakyat. It is just that many of you did not know me back in 2000. You only knew me in 2008 so you gauge what I say based on 2008 and not based on 2000.

Even back in 2000 I wrote that PAS has to decide whether it wants to be a dakwah or missionary movement or a political party. It is trying to be both and it cannot be both because both are not compatible. Politics is about winning elections and about forming governments. Missionary movements are about spreading Islam and about getting non-Muslims to convert to Islam. How can you do both under one umbrella? One would cancel the other.

The PAS people interpreted my stand as me being anti-Islam. The DAP people interpreted my stand as me being anti-opposition. And the PKR people interpreted my stand as me being anti-Anwar. If I oppose the death sentence would you interpret that as me being anti-justice or pro-murder? Can I instead be accused of being pro-Judaism since the Law of Moses says thou shall not kill (and there was no qualification to that Commandment: however thou can kill if it is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life)?

I also wrote many times that one day the Hudud issue is going to resurface and do not be surprised if this time Umno and the Malays in PKR support the issue. Then the non-Malay parties in Barisan Nasional will take the opposite stand. What we will see in the end is the Malays on one side and the non-Malays on the other and this time they would be divided not along party lines but along racial/religious lines.

Yes, that was what I said might happen some time in the future. I suspect that that time may have already come. The ‘future’ is here. So, would I be wrong by saying, “I told you so”? Once the genie is out of the bottle it would be very difficult to contain the situation. Once out you can never get it back in. And the genie may already be out of the bottle regarding the Hudud matter.

I think I will just sit back and enjoy the show. It is so satisfying to be proven right. With Umno, PAS and the Malays in PKR united in support of Hudud, and DAP, the non-Malays in PKR, MCA, MIC, Gerakan, PPP, etc., united against Hudud, Malaysian politics is about to enter a new era that will bring the country back to 1969 politics.

Well done Anwar and Pakatan Rakyat. You are exactly where I said you would be if you take my criticism as destructive rather than constructive. And what was it the Pakatan Rakyat supporters kept telling me? Ah, that’s right, vote Pakatan Rakyat into office first and later we can settle all our differences and address the weaknesses.

Now can you see why I said we need to settle these issues first before they take office and not later after they take office because these very issues will be the hindrance to them taking office?

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发表于 22-4-2014 03:25 PM | 显示全部楼层
tanxinrong 发表于 22-4-2014 03:14 PM
虽然有些时候不同意RPK的文章,这篇却是一针见血!

虽然是马后炮,不过 RPK 这个文章是写的不错,如果有中文翻译可以放上来。



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发表于 22-4-2014 06:20 PM | 显示全部楼层
tanxinrong 发表于 22-4-2014 03:14 PM
虽然有些时候不同意RPK的文章,这篇却是一针见血!

RPK 的 trolling 技巧 level,还要比@bashlyner 高出一个层次。。。
有时候大家只是被他trolled了,只生气但没有认真去想一想他写的,就浪费了。。。


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发表于 22-4-2014 07:28 PM | 显示全部楼层
tanxinrong 发表于 22-4-2014 11:32 AM
巫统很想伊斯兰教化很久了,只是要有个当作丑人,伊斯兰党就跳下去。

真正害到民联不能改朝换代的是巫 ...

我们都同意  伊斯兰党是没能力推行回教法的
如果巫统迟早要实行回教法  
为什么不可以今年6月给人民知道
难道要民联应该继续帮国阵掩盖事实  

至少  我们的基本立场是一样的

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发表于 22-4-2014 07:39 PM | 显示全部楼层
yame 发表于 22-4-2014 12:49 PM
责任是一回事,后果是另一回事。
不负责任的事,在我国是家常便饭。
但后果必须有人承担。

308和505大选  
人民选择不要继续做顺民
希望实现两线制带来改革
也一样要面对各种后果

小人物是被动的  没有权利决定后果
在这个课题上  只能选择要不要知道国会投票的结果


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发表于 22-4-2014 07:55 PM | 显示全部楼层
逍遙 发表于 22-4-2014 07:39 PM
308和505大选  
人民选择不要继续做顺民
希望实现两线制带来改革



也不全然

小人物抱着勇往直前的精神

乌克兰前总统也仓皇出逃

本帖最后由 cct2050 于 22-4-2014 08:05 PM 编辑

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 楼主| 发表于 22-4-2014 10:37 PM 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
逍遙 发表于 22-4-2014 07:28 PM
我们都同意  伊斯兰党是没能力推行回教法的
如果巫统迟早要实行回教法  
为什么不可以今年6月给人民知道 ...

你问为什么不可以?

很简单,现今的马来西亚完全没必要冒这个险。跳进巫统的洞,不管结果如何,民联都是输家。
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发表于 22-4-2014 11:09 PM 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
tanxinrong 发表于 22-4-2014 09:11 AM
很难讲,安华已经开声了,说没权利阻止带上国会。

民联老大已经这么说了,行动党能怎样?

行动党现在就像马华被巫統玩那样。除了在华文报上乱喊就什么也做不了。当初说的平起平坐变了样。
其实大家都知道,说的回教,没有一个回教徒是敢反对的。行动党难道不知道吗。他们也知道。只是在选民前面他们装不懂。
就好像当年改选时说的要恢复地方议会选举。难道行动党的那些律师候选人不知道要举办地方议会选举是必须中央政府批准吗。他们知道只是为了骗选票。在扮傻仔。
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 楼主| 发表于 22-4-2014 11:13 PM 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
krai 发表于 22-4-2014 11:09 PM
行动党现在就像马华被巫統玩那样。除了在华文报上乱喊就什么也做不了。当初说的平起平坐变了样。
其实大 ...

骗话说多最终也会被戮破的。

行动党和伊斯兰党理念南辕北辙,能为了政权合作到今天算不易了。

接下来的,呵呵,就看他们领袖的智慧了。
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发表于 22-4-2014 11:16 PM | 显示全部楼层
民联的建立可能就是有一个 Expired Date 的,原本是希望 505 一举拿下布城后重新换个新罐头。结果当不成政府,保质期又快到,所以就酿成今天这种局面。不止民联友党之间的矛盾,他们各自党内也有问题,都是快到 Expired Date 的。

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发表于 22-4-2014 11:18 PM 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
tanxinrong 发表于 22-4-2014 11:13 PM
骗话说多最终也会被戮破的。

行动党和伊斯兰党理念南辕北辙,能为了政权合作到今天算不易了。


其实如果回教法没影响非回教徒,我才不管他要不要实行。只是在回教徒眼里。什么法律,规矩都没有回教法来得大。就算那回教法已是几百年前的产物。真不明白这么没有进化的法律为什么还有人会这么认真要去实行。

只是有些事情是不能试的,因为试过就没得后悔,就像走上一条不归路。 本帖最后由 krai 于 22-4-2014 11:20 PM 编辑

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 楼主| 发表于 22-4-2014 11:24 PM 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
krai 发表于 22-4-2014 11:18 PM
其实如果回教法没影响非回教徒,我才不管他要不要实行。只是在回教徒眼里。什么法律,规矩都没有回教法来 ...


60 年代 时马来人较开放,可以接受赌马,可以喝点酒,可以打牌玩poker ,女性很多可以不包头。

可惜,几十年的伊斯兰教化搞出了这么多食古不化的穆斯林,这是马来西亚的悲哀。越来越宗教化不要紧,要回归古代那种原教旨才恐怖。

基督教在人权科学抬头后都被逼要放弃过时的律法了(现在很多都不敢骂同性恋了),这群穆斯林却越来越极端! 本帖最后由 tanxinrong 于 23-4-2014 06:37 AM 编辑

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发表于 22-4-2014 11:29 PM 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
tanxinrong 发表于 22-4-2014 11:24 PM
60 年代 时马来人较开发,可以接受赌马,可以喝点酒,可以打牌玩poker ,女性很多可以不包头。

可惜 ...

还好以前的回教徒较开放,不然P Ramlee,就没饭吃了。看看他拍的电影,赌博,求字,马来演员只穿沙龙就可以出镜。
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发表于 23-4-2014 09:27 AM | 显示全部楼层
tanxinrong 发表于 22-4-2014 02:45 PM
都是一样的,只是基督教懂得进步,认为律法已经不符合时代。
这就是为何现今越来越多基督徒逐渐接受同性 ...

换个角度看,其实是回教比较有原则,并且没有那么虚伪
但,一体两面,极度有原则的人也往往极端,极度坦诚的人若只认行为想法却不认错也会变得厚颜无耻

比如说回教党,虽然我不喜欢他们对回教法的坚持,但毫无疑问的是,他们对回教的坚持从来都没隐藏过,也从来没有动摇过,这点巫统就完全比不上

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 楼主| 发表于 23-4-2014 09:40 AM | 显示全部楼层
JowY 发表于 23-4-2014 09:27 AM
换个角度看,其实是回教比较有原则,并且没有那么虚伪
但,一体两面,极度有原则的人也往往极端,极度坦 ...

对我而言,原则在侵犯他人基本人权时就不值得尊重了。

有原则是好的,基督教那些原教旨的要有原则也是可以,只是若要将自己那一套强加他人就不好了。人的想法会进步,很多东西都会因为时代的变迁而变得不合时宜。如果坚持原则,可以啊,但要keep it to yourself,侵犯他人基本权益就和让人无法苟同了。毕竟这世界不是只属于一个宗教的。我的神未必是你的神,你的神也未必是我的神。强加他人的霸道行径已经不合乎这时代了。

RPK说得对,如果真要有原则,我们这些异教徒可能都要处死。
本帖最后由 tanxinrong 于 23-4-2014 09:47 AM 编辑

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JowY + 3 赞同 keep it to yourself
逍遙 + 2 理想是美好的

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